**Host (Utkarsh):** [00:00] Hi Rajen, great to have you with us. I always love speaking to our subscribers who are doing interesting things. You are somebody who has straddled from consulting to writing to moviemaking, so I think that you exemplify a portfolio of careers in a very interesting way. Could you just tell us a bit about who you are and how you got here?

**Rajen:** [00:29] I guess I'm currently a Client Partner with Korn Ferry Singapore. I work in the area of leadership development, organization advisory, and also in the upcoming field of ESG, particularly from a people perspective.

**Host (Utkarsh):** [00:50] Awesome. And I see that there are these movie posters. So connect the dots between Korn Ferry, McKinsey, and movies, and then we'll explore other things.

**Rajen:** [01:02] I think I have the unique privilege of perhaps being one of the few that got a chance to set my foot on an IIM campus as well as FTII [Film and Television Institute of India]. In that sense, for almost about six to seven years, I led a double life after my MBA. In the day, I was a management consultant advising banks on credit card processes, and in the night I was writing heist movies. So that's the kind of double life that I was living.

**Rajen:** [01:45] Until I went for a leadership program—this was when I was with McKinsey as a participant. The truth of the matter is that while I went to this public enrollment leadership program and told myself, "Yeah, I was very humble and I was here to learn," and I was like, "Okay, tell me about leadership." It was somewhere at day two or so of the program that it dropped on me that the program was not about leadership, but about _me_.

**Rajen:** [02:24] **That was where I found how I could get rid of the excuses of my life of not being a full-time screenwriter or a full-time consultant.** Everything that I was able to blame, from Indian culture to parents to everything else, I was able to see that I could actually bring these two worlds together. What attracted me to screenwriting was looking at characters, looking at putting them in situations of choices, and seeing what choices do they make. Do those choices then lead them to be better human beings or leads to their downfall?

**Rajen:** [03:00] I suddenly realized that by getting into the world of leadership development, I could do this with real people. **I could have a little chance to be that one little humble nudge in the life of somebody so that they could make choices that have them grow rather than fall.** So that's how Korn Ferry, McKinsey, moviemaking, business, creative, people—all of that sort of comes together.

**Host (Utkarsh):** [03:29] I love the answer because it explores intersectionality, a theme that we come across often on Network Capital. So could you give us how you got started in your side hustle, which became something really important in your life, and I think today helps you do your job much better. But we'll come to all of that. Tell us about your first break. A real break in movies.

**Rajen:** [03:54] So it was actually quite interesting. I went to... well first of all, during undergrad and also during IIM Calcutta, I was the dramatic secretary and was doing all kinds of creative stuff in advertising. I always imagined that I would end up being in advertising until, of course, CAT [Common Admission Test] happened. I think there is still an inquiry going on as to how did this guy get into... there is something wrong with the system.

**Rajen:** [04:22] But to answer your question, how did I get my first break? I had already been three years in consulting then and I just decided I needed to take a break. Sorry, can we pause this? Because I think my mom needs a bit of support. I'm just going to...

**Host (Utkarsh):** [04:40] Please.

_[Break in recording]_

**Host (Utkarsh):** [05:22] Yeah, I think Varun should be able to edit this. Just section out. You can continue as is.

**Rajen:** [05:34] So should I... would you be posing the question again and then we take it on from there?

**Host (Utkarsh):** [05:39] I can pose the question again. I can just... so this entire chunk we can remove. You can just tell... So Rajen, could you tell us how you got your first break into movies and how did you manage that with your busy schedule at McKinsey?

**Rajen:** [05:55] Yeah. So firstly, just as a clarification, at that time I was with a different consulting firm, which was Eicher Consulting that eventually got bought out by PricewaterhouseCoopers. McKinsey happened afterwards. But to answer your question, I was still with consulting, it was three years since MBA, and I was itching to do... go back to creative. So I took a month off and did the film appreciation course at FTII. I think the generalizable lesson that you will see, which you have been speaking about, is that **first dip your... like an old African proverb says that if you want to test the depth of the waters, use one foot.**

**Rajen:** [06:36] So that's what I did. Still with my job on, I went to FTII for a one-month course which was residential. I came back, I joined a screenwriting course called _Kalam_ [Pen]. In which I got exposure to a number of great writers and directors. The final assignment of that was in pairs. Now remember, I knew _nobody_ in the film industry. Nobody. My partner, with whom I wrote my final assignment which was a full script, her neighbor happened to be a small-time producer for television. Small-time but very creative, with an eye for stuff. She happened to narrate the story to him.

**Rajen:** [07:27] One thing led to the other. It was an original Made-for-TV movie at the time for Sahara One. It was appreciated so much that Star One was just launching and they gave the same producer and myself the opportunity to do another one. In this, the director was Anand L. Rai of _Tanu Weds Manu_ fame now. So we worked together on that. And then the lead actor of the first telefilm, a guy called Kabir Sadanand, he got a movie deal to become a director. He had worked with me, he gave me a call saying, "Why don't you write?" One thing led to the other and I now have four movies that have been produced and one award nomination for the best screenwriter award as well.

**Host (Utkarsh):** [08:24] Yeah. When one Googles you, of course, your academic and professional qualifications come up, but so does your writing and so does your movie. So congratulations for that. I'm not sure if everyone can be as Googleable as you, but it's good to see you make your mark across spectrums. Did you notice that your screenwriting made you a better writer in general? And you were able to say, put forward more cohesive articles or papers as you've written in books and journals and so forth?

**Rajen:** [09:00] Well, I must say that it's a double-edged sword. Real life... I got invited to write the dialogues for _Namastey London_, the Akshay Kumar - Katrina Kaif starrer by Vipul Shah, a very famous director. I was invited to write the dialogues, but I had certain points of view on the screenplay itself. The consultant in me, I don't know what happened, he said, "Okay, so tell me what your thought process is." I went and created a PowerPoint deck, 20 slides dissecting the screenplay. That didn't go down too well! I was fired from the role of the dialogue writer.

**Rajen:** [09:48] Sometimes I find that in my professional work, I sometimes tend to challenge the boundaries too much and sort of err on the side of the creative and new. In both of those fields, I think it has been a plus and a minus. **I think I bring almost an analytical rigor to the creative world which I think makes things sometimes better, sometimes not quite. And likewise the creative bent to my management consulting work.** What I can say is it makes it distinctive for sure.

**Host (Utkarsh):** [10:35] Absolutely. You know, when I was writing my book and the article on _Deep Generalists_, I talked about how **magic happens at intersections**. In your case, say combining art with an analytical bent of mind just helps you build your own category. I like to call that "Category of One." And it reflects throughout your career. Do you want to tell us more about that becoming a double-edged sword in the space of writing? And how that has perhaps helped you shape your career in consulting and after?

**Rajen:** [11:13] So, how that has become a double-edged sword, is that your question?

**Host (Utkarsh):** [11:17] Yeah. I mean, we are largely interested in understanding how you write and how you are trying to become a better writer and so forth.

**Rajen:** [11:27] I see. So I am, these days, considered "Old School," I suppose. I'm quite a devotee of Robert McKee, the famous screenwriting guru whose students have some 250 Emmys and Oscars put together. He borrows from Aristotle in his fundamental approach, which Aristotle captured in _Principia Dramatica_ [Poetics]. So I do have a TEDx talk at the National University of Singapore where I've tried to capture some of that.

**Rajen:** [12:05] So I follow the three-act structure. I follow the fundamental principles of **Expectation-Reality Gap**. Of **Escalating Stakes**. These are some of the principles that I tend to watch out for. The test of whether the audience would root for this character and why—which is a very central tenet of "Save the Cat," which is the more contemporary version of what everybody is referring to in the screenwriting world at least.

**Host (Utkarsh):** [12:44] That's right. Yeah. I mean, I love the fact that intersectionality keeps coming up. But you also write non-fiction reports, and the last I read was that you had published a chapter in a book and also a journal. Aren't the styles very different? And how does the creative in you make sense of some of those more rigid forms of writing?

**Rajen:** [13:10] Yeah. I mean the honest truth would be that the book that you're referring to is _The Global Handbook of Impact Investing_. In that, I was invited to write a chapter on leadership, which is "How can leadership be used by impact investors as an instrument or a lever to unlock Alpha"—both alpha impact and alpha financial returns from investee companies.

**Rajen:** [13:41] Now, truth be told, my editor, who is also ex-McKinsey and Ashoka Fellow and so on—very prolific gentleman from San Francisco—he basically beat me quite a bit to make sure that the screenwriter out of me was respectfully curtailed to make sure that it was conforming more to the academic style of writing. But I think I enjoy the process. I enjoy getting that feedback. What I enjoy most is mentorship, really, in both forms. Where you bounce this off. And of course, my wife happens to be my biggest mentor as well.

**Host (Utkarsh):** [14:29] That's amazing. So two questions on that. One is, what is the big takeaway from writing that chapter? What's the larger message that you wanted to share? And second is, tell us about your wife and how she's played the role of a mentor or a sounding board and so forth.

**Rajen:** [14:46] So the chapter is called "Leadership by Results for Impact Investors and Investees." I think there are three key ideas in the chapter. And it's built upon the very fortunate coincidence that I had, post my McKinsey career, to run into this model of leadership which is called the Phenomenological Ontological Model of Leadership. We don't need to get stuck in that tongue twister. The three key insights are as follows:

**Rajen:** [15:23] Number one: **If we dare to call human beings as 'human capital', and if we dare to say that we are making enough investment into your leaders, then by corollary, we should be willing to stand up and be subjected to everything that an investment is subjected to. i.e., What is the Return on Investment?** Till the day we as the fraternity of leadership development folks don't allow ourselves to be subjected to those questions, until then, the responsibility really is on us to get the CEOs, the boards, to actually think about human capital as an investment. That's kind of number one: Leadership by Results. So let's just make sure... and I proposed even some EBITDA multiples of how should you decide whether you should go in for a particular leadership program or not. That's message number one.

**Rajen:** [16:44] Message number two is: **Draw the distinction between Leadership and Tourism.** Leadership which is prompted by, "Go and maybe you like something, maybe you'll meet new people." I guess tourism can do that job. So what's the distinction between leadership development investment and tourism? Tie it to a top three goal of the organization that the board is concerned about, that the top team is concerned about. And make the leadership development contextualized to that particular problem. Such that it becomes the arena for practice. You've not said that, "My job is simply to provide you with some inputs. Now what you do with it is really up to you." It is my job to be a partner in the goals that you are seeking and I need to be accountable for the goals, not just for feedback from you.

**Rajen:** [17:52] The last idea is that let's do this in teams. Let's do this as intact teams because when it's a really high stakes goal—and now I'm using some of the language from my screenwriting—when it's a high stakes goal, it needs the entire top team to come together. So those are the three sort of key messages.

**Host (Utkarsh):** [18:16] Yeah. In a typical consulting fashion, you were able to explain that very well. Now tell us about your wife and how she's shaped you as a professional, as a person, as a writer, and so forth.

**Rajen:** [18:28] Well, I think... I mean we've so far only talked about the dichotomy of the writing profession and leadership being a leadership consultant. But I've had a few more detours in my life. Like I've had a good six, seven years stint in the international development and social sector. Serving the UN, serving Government of India, worked on Swachh Bharat and so on and so forth.

**Rajen:** [19:01] So I think the shortest way to answer that would be that if there is a portfolio of careers that somebody is pursuing, **be assured that there is somebody who is holding the fulcrum which is allowing for all of this experimentation.** And some might say "indulgence" to be possible. And that's the role that really she has played as I've navigated all of these multiple arenas.

**Host (Utkarsh):** [19:38] Everyone needs a home, like a fulcrum, a base to build upon. And on Network Capital, our mission is to help everyone find that tribe of mentors, that base, to get to that level. And we actually love micro-experimentations and meanderings. So in the time that you were in development consulting with the UN, on Swachh Bharat and so forth, how did you make sense of your career, if at all? What was the thought process behind it? The fact that it looked good on CV is helpful, but that can't be the real story. So tell us what the real story was and what prompted you to indulge in that direction.

**Rajen:** [20:25] So the story is the following. It was 2011. I had just come back from Shanghai from a client engagement. I was with a consulting firm then, this was with Heidrick & Struggles, where I was one of the early people that set up the leadership advisory practice for them. I remember being in a bus in Singapore and reading news on the BlackBerry at the time, if you remember. And the Times of India headlines said that there is this Gandhian that's fasting at Ramlila Grounds [Anna Hazare movement] and apparently a Hong Kong investment banker has also just shown up there.

**Rajen:** [21:11] And for whatever reason, a line just set off in my mind that, "Look, a flight goes from Singapore to Delhi as well." And I don't know what sort of came over me, but essentially by the next morning I was on the plane to Delhi. I came to Ramlila Grounds. I knew nobody in Delhi—I'm born and brought up in Mumbai. And I had no idea what a fast looks like, what an agitation looks like. I don't know what you do when you land up.

**Rajen:** [21:44] But it turned out to be an absolutely heady experience. It was... the sheer visual sensory feel of it was like **Quit India Movement meets an India-Pakistan cricket match stadium meets Woodstock festival.** And this along with the _Jagriti Yatra_ [Awakening Journey] which I then took in the same December... I think you might be aware, it's a 9,000 kilometer train journey across India that takes you to meet social entrepreneurs that have made scale impact—Arvind Eye Care, Tilonia, Barefoot College, and ending with Sabarmati Ashram which is the home of the biggest social entrepreneur of them all.

**Rajen:** [22:36] So these two experiences had a fairly significant impact on me. My father too, right from my childhood, he had been an honest sales tax officer. I mean somebody that was in sales tax but never took bribes. So I'd grown up on those stories. So this sort of made me feel like if I could, I would love to serve clients that are chasing purpose as well as doing well. So doing good and doing well.

**Host (Utkarsh):** [23:05] Doing good and doing well. It's fascinating. We see that many people want to go down this path trying to do good, do well, but it's not easy. And we try to of course nudge them in the right direction. Are there some practices or ideas that you've seen people deploy in the current scenario that can help people navigate the social sector, the development sector, and the corporate world?

**Rajen:** [23:36] You mean simultaneously? Or you mean to take the jump?

**Host (Utkarsh):** [23:41] Simultaneously. Let's explore the options. You've written about human capital, impact investing. Then you've also not been shy of jumping a sector from one to the other, jumping countries. And now you're back to, in some shape or form, leadership development, leadership capacity. So how do we understand these career changes? Because I think the doing good and doing well are a constant. It's not that you used to want that and don't want that anymore.

**Rajen:** [24:16] Right. So if I understand your question, you're saying how does one make sense of these myriad stories? Is that fair to say?

**Host (Utkarsh):** [24:23] Yeah. And are there some practical ways to navigate these choices? Are there decision-making frameworks that you've used?

**Rajen:** [24:32] Right. Got it. So look, I think let me start with the simplest thing that does come to my mind. Does doing good and doing well... that desire, can it ever be... could you be "been there done that" with that? I don't think so. I think it's just a way of life, right?

**Rajen:** [24:59] Is that still continuing for me? Clearly, certainly on a net basis, it is. For Korn Ferry, I'm co-leading the Asia co-lead for ESG Solutions. In my development and impact sector time, I was serving the USAID, I was serving the World Bank, I was serving Asian Development Bank, UN bodies and so on. In their efforts to engage the private sector on socially inclusive, environmentally friendly business models. And now post the Biden election, COP26, and all that's going on in the world, it looks like the time has probably come. So does that continue? Yes, it does. Vehicle for that changes? Sure, but it sort of continues. And again, there is a nonprofit practice at Korn Ferry and impact investing practice and so on. So that kind of continues.

**Rajen:** [26:02] So that's kind of around the constancy or consistency of that doing well and doing good. Now comes the question of how does, if somebody wants to do that, what are some of the decision frameworks? I would say it is something that you have often talked about. Like I said earlier, first of all, if you are in a world and you want to test the depth of the water in another world, use one foot, don't use both. So figure out ways to dip your toe. Figure out ways through volunteerism, through everything that you've spoken about regarding the side hustle economy etc.

**Rajen:** [26:50] I think at some point of time, this becomes a question more about **your life's balance sheet.** And by the life balance sheet, what I mean is on the assets and liabilities side. You know, assets and liabilities are not just the financial ones. There are liabilities like, do you have kids? How far do you want to go in supporting their education? Is that abroad or not? Is it covering for grad and postgrad or not? Do you have old parents who you want to take care of? On the asset side, it's also network capital—if I may use that word—your social capital, the kind of spouse you have, the kind of expectation the spouse has in terms of their own life vision and so on.

**Rajen:** [27:46] So I think sort of draw that life's balance sheet. In fact, I've done some work during the pandemic on a product—I was trying to productize this—and I called it "From Emergency to Emergence." Which is B2E. I think consultants like these kinds of phrases. So draw up your life's balance sheet and then, just like what we do in banks in ALM [Asset Liability Management], you look at what are your short-term versus long-term assets and liabilities. **A mismatch in that is going to be quite turbulent. So just make sure there is some degree of matching between your long-term assets, long-term liabilities, and short-term assets, short-term liabilities. And that earns you your Degrees of Freedom.**

**Rajen:** [28:40] After you've done that, if you've actually earned your degree of freedom already, do not waste it! Use it! And if you haven't, then be prudent.

**Host (Utkarsh):** [28:53] Really thoughtful suggestion, Rajen. Just wanted to bounce off and understand the role of spur of the moment, inspiration, or "just do it." Do you buy into these philosophies or are you more intentional and strategic about some of these phases that you've taken?

**Rajen:** [29:19] Actually, I think it's very difficult to be quite objective about oneself in this. Anyone from the outside would definitely say that there is... I think there are certainly some moments that strike me as being the "let's just do it." I think two of them strike me particularly right now as we speak. One is that moment when I was reading the BlackBerry for the Anna Hazare movement. There's another one where a political leader—no prizes for guessing—I got a call. I had just recovered from a liver surgery in Singapore. I happened to be in India on a special permission from my wife to attend a company conference for just one day. I was supposed to just fly back to Singapore. I got a call from this political leader and the next thing, when I called up my wife, she was thinking I've landed at Singapore, but actually I was calling from Ratlam Junction because I was on a train to Delhi on the spur of the moment because I felt like this was a possibility to contribute to something much bigger than myself.

**Rajen:** [30:40] So sorry, I've kind of thought aloud in response to your question, but it looks like there are sufficient number of data points that suggest that the spur of the moment has also worked in my life.

**Host (Utkarsh):** [30:52] Yeah. When I spoke to you first, which was about a year and a little more back, I thought that this gentleman actually combines the "let's do it" and "let's be intentional about it" in a very interesting way. And then of course, like we've been in touch through Network Capital and it's been a joy to see both happening. I did not know about the Ratlam bit or the other thing that you mentioned about the Singapore BlackBerry bit. But I'm sure that having or balancing this hasn't been easy. So could you talk to us about say one biggest challenge of trying to build a portfolio of careers? And one deep joy of balancing many hats in your life?

**Rajen:** [31:39] Yeah. I think the challenge is very straightforward, which is that I think you need to cultivate a lot of **humility**. And what do I mean by that? It's a very specific thing I mean by this. On one hand, as you're having a conversation with yourself, or your friends are talking to you, right, and they would have a fair degree of admiration for the kind of diversity of exposure and all of that that you've done. Which makes you kind of unique.

**Rajen:** [32:21] And at the same time, when you decide to then shift into a new arena—be it on the development sector, be it on the commercial sector, be it in the creative arts, wherever, it doesn't matter—**you are in some senses a beginner all over again.** You know? So I think what you need to really get good at is: **How do you be an accomplished beginner?** If that makes sense.

**Host (Utkarsh):** [32:57] Yeah, it does.

**Rajen:** [32:59] And to the extent that you let the accomplishments get to your head, you won't be a good beginner. And to the extent that you let the beginner feeling kind of overcome you, then you need to kind of also just go back to the accomplishments and say, "Yeah, but if I could do that, then I can do this."

**Rajen:** [33:31] And that sense of respect, genuine respect for those that have stuck to that particular field, right? I mean so with the same number of years as you cumulatively. Now if they have a certain, let's say client network, or network in Bollywood, or whichever way, wherever that person has invested... I think having that very genuine healthy respect for those folks for having stuck to it, while not discounting yourselves. I don't know if that makes sense.

**Host (Utkarsh):** [34:11] It makes perfect sense. Any parting advice for our viewers on your career, on life, anything? Parting wisdom?

**Rajen:** [34:20] You know, frankly, I am not very sure if I'm qualified to talk very wisely. All I can say is that I think what I've learned from screenwriting, from being an observer of human beings, from being a coach to very senior leaders, is that ultimately it's the **power of conscious choice**. I think there are a lot of choices that we are making in the moment at any given point in time. For every single question of yours, there were 360-raised-to-360 directions that I could have gone into. I have no idea why, what prompted me to go to a particular direction. But the more that I can get self-aware of that, the more I can exercise conscious choice. Particularly in how I frame situations. How I see them. The more it will just lead to efficacy.

**Host (Utkarsh):** [35:27] Great. Well Rajen, keep writing, keep creating positive impact. And we look forward to following your career through the years to come. Thank you very much for doing this. We're going to put the link of your book and the link of your movies and other productions in the show notes. And look forward to having you back with us. Take care.

**Rajen:** [35:48] Thank you so much. And you too please keep doing the work that you're doing. You are a beacon of inspiration to people younger and older than you. So please, please continue to spread this. You are an idea worth spreading.

**Host (Utkarsh):** [36:05] Thank you Rajen, really appreciate that. All of us on NC [Network Capital], we are one team and I'm thrilled that you're part of our journey. Thank you very much. See you soon. Bye.

**Rajen:** [36:13] Take care.